science fiction/fantasy and religion

[David Dalton]

How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy
affected your religious beliefs, if at all? It is
well known that Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange
Land has influenced RDNA druids and The Church of
All Worlds, and that L. Ron Hubbard influenced
The Church of Scientology, for example.

As I have mentioned in another thread on alt.atheism,
I consider myself to be a polytheistic pantheist.
My eight main deities, which are defined on
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html ,
are ALL, Universe, LOVE2, Galaxy, Sun, Earth,
Moon, and Human. (Unlike some Wiccans, I do
not consider all of my deities other than ALL
to be aspects of ALL, just subsets of ALL.)

Currently I believe that all eight have consciousness
and I worship them (consider them deities to me).

If I didn't believe that they had consciousness
then I would be an atheist. In that case LOVE2
would be replaced by a message of love and Human
would be replaced by humanism, and I would
just revere and study the other six without
considering them as someones. This I consider
strong atheism.

But a few years ago I decided that they had
consciousness (existed as someones) but that
I would no longer worship them, that they were
no longer deities with respect to me. This
I consider weak atheism.

However these days I do worship them and consider
myself to be in a religion of one and am not
recruiting. I am pushing some non-religious
messages but I am not pushing my deities on
anyone. Also these days I am not far from
returning to weak or strong atheism. I have
been atheist for a good chunk of my life even
though I was raised Catholic.

My religious views have been influenced more by
science fiction and fantasy than by the bible.

Was Spinoza an atheist?

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Post by David Dalton
How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy
affected your religious beliefs, if at all?

Never had any. Didn't even realize that there were people who took this
"God" thing seriously until I was in my very late teens or early 20s.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy affected your
religious beliefs, if at all?

Never had any. Didn't even realize that there were people who took this
"God" thing seriously until I was in my very late teens or early 20s.

Why did it take so long ? Surely you must have noticed churches.

[David Johnston]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy affected your
religious beliefs, if at all?

Never had any. Didn't even realize that there were people who took
this "God" thing seriously until I was in my very late teens or early
20s.

Why did it take so long ? Surely you must have noticed churches.

Going to a church isn't the same thing as believing.

[Rod Speed]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy affected your
religious beliefs, if at all?

Never had any. Didn't even realize that there were people who took
this "God" thing seriously until I was in my very late teens or early
20s.

Why did it take so long ? Surely you must have noticed churches.

Going to a church isn't the same thing as believing.

Sure, but it's a tad unlikely that he thought they were
just places where people chose to meet weekly and
didn't even notice that there was some belief in
gods involved unless he lived the first 20 years in
some place where there were no churches and
didn't have any TV or books etc which is unlikely.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy affected your
religious beliefs, if at all?

Never had any. Didn't even realize that there were people who took
this "God" thing seriously until I was in my very late teens or early
20s.

Why did it take so long ? Surely you must have noticed churches.

I thought they were relics -- essentially social clubs that retained
rituals of the old days. Not things where people actually BELIEVED in
this supernatural force.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy affected your
religious beliefs, if at all?

Never had any. Didn't even realize that there were people who took
this "God" thing seriously until I was in my very late teens or early
20s.

Why did it take so long ? Surely you must have noticed churches.

I thought they were relics -- essentially social clubs that retained
rituals of the old days.

Didn't you see any televangelists on TV etc ?

Or Billy Graham etc ? I thought that would
have been before you were in your early 20s
given that it was with me and I am quite a bit
older than you.

You never had any Joveys or Mormons knock on the door ?

Wasn't there anyone you went to school with that believed ?

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Not things where people actually BELIEVED in this supernatural force.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy affected your
religious beliefs, if at all?

Never had any. Didn't even realize that there were people who took
this "God" thing seriously until I was in my very late teens or
early 20s.

Why did it take so long ? Surely you must have noticed churches.

I thought they were relics -- essentially social clubs that retained
rituals of the old days.

Didn't you see any televangelists on TV etc ?
Or Billy Graham etc ? I thought that would
have been before you were in your early 20s
given that it was with me and I am quite a bit
older than you.

Hardly ever watched TV in my house. I could literally name you the
shows that I watched up through the age of 18, and it would be a short
list aside from various cartoons.

Post by Rod Speed
You never had any Joveys or Mormons knock on the door ?

Our house was not easy to get to when I was young, so not that I
remember. I wouldn't be the person answering the door anyway up until I
was in my very late teens; I wasn't the boss of the house so it wasn't
my business who knocked.

Post by Rod Speed
Wasn't there anyone you went to school with that believed ?

I'd have had no way of knowing; until I was in my late teens I had
maybe two friends, and NO interaction with classmates that I could
possibly avoid. I read books in class, and made it a point to get from
class to class as soon as possible; being beaten up at random points
made it a strong motivation for me to be exposed to contact with others
as little as possible.

[The Starmaker]

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy affected your
religious beliefs, if at all?

Never had any. Didn't even realize that there were people who took
this "God" thing seriously until I was in my very late teens or
early 20s.

Why did it take so long ? Surely you must have noticed churches.

I thought they were relics -- essentially social clubs that retained
rituals of the old days.

Didn't you see any televangelists on TV etc ?
Or Billy Graham etc ? I thought that would
have been before you were in your early 20s
given that it was with me and I am quite a bit
older than you.

Hardly ever watched TV in my house. I could literally name you the
shows that I watched up through the age of 18, and it would be a short
list aside from various cartoons.

You probably only had three channels...

Name the shows.

[JRStern]

Post by David Dalton
How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy
affected your religious beliefs, if at all? It is
well known that Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange
Land has influenced RDNA druids and The Church of
All Worlds, and that L. Ron Hubbard influenced
The Church of Scientology, for example.
As I have mentioned in another thread on alt.atheism,
I consider myself to be a polytheistic pantheist.
My eight main deities, which are defined on
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html ,
are ALL, Universe, LOVE2, Galaxy, Sun, Earth,
Moon, and Human. (Unlike some Wiccans, I do
not consider all of my deities other than ALL
to be aspects of ALL, just subsets of ALL.)
Currently I believe that all eight have consciousness
and I worship them (consider them deities to me).

TMI, dude.

Post by David Dalton
My religious views have been influenced more by
science fiction and fantasy than by the bible.
Was Spinoza an atheist?

Er, not by my recollection, wait a moment while I Google to see if I
can figure out what you're talking about. Aha. Well, if what you
want to do is classify your pantheistic self with Spinoza in some way,
shape or form, you can have my blessings or not, as you prefer.

--

To your opening question, yes, I think my reading of scifi does affect
my religous beliefs, if any, which is mostly to make certain that they
are kept rather separate, the points being that religion is a matter
of faith and perhaps morality or at least elements thereof, where
scifi is about rational speculation and entertainment. If you don't
see the point of the separation, then perhaps you haven't really
grasped either side, which is not to say that it is ever easy or
simple or agreed upon in detail by any great number of people.

J.

[Bill Gill]

Post by David Dalton
that L. Ron Hubbard influenced
The Church of Scientology, for example.

L. Ron Hubbard didn't influence the Church of
Scientology. He invented it. Of course what
I have heard of its basic belief shows he just
transformed his Science Fiction into a
religion.

Bill

[Brenda Clough]

Post by David Dalton
How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy
affected your religious beliefs, if at all?

You will find a considerable influence of religion in the genre. If (as
it is argued) a bent towards spirituality is inborn in many of us, this
should not be a surprise; the theme is not quite as common as sex, but
very nearly. Cordwainer Smith, John Varley, Urusla LeGuin, Roger
Zelazny, C.S Lewis -- oh, the list of authors who have dealt seriously
and creatively with the issue goes on and on.

Just so that you have a data point, I am a professed Christian and quite
active in the faith. I doubt I have ever written a book that does not
have a sneaky and underhanded religious angle in it, because the
characters must wrestle with moral issues.

Brenda

[The Starmaker]

Post by David Dalton
How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy
affected your religious beliefs, if at all?

The origin of science fiction is religion..

angels from stars

aliens is just
an upgrade from angels.


Scientology is religion, science fiction religion.

[The Starmaker]

Post by The Starmaker

Post by David Dalton
How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy
affected your religious beliefs, if at all?

The origin of science fiction is religion..
angels from stars
aliens is just
an upgrade from angels.
Scientology is religion, science fiction religion.

Here is a pair of Alien Sun glasses
Loading Image...

You'll notice 3 designs of the same shapes here ( flying saucer ovals):

Loading Image...


When a scientology follower reaches the last Level, ...
they get into a flying saucer and they go off into space.



The Starmaker

[The Starmaker]

Post by The Starmaker

Post by The Starmaker

Post by David Dalton
How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy
affected your religious beliefs, if at all?

The origin of science fiction is religion..
angels from stars
aliens is just
an upgrade from angels.
Scientology is religion, science fiction religion.

Here is a pair of Alien Sun glasses
http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/muu1q4b7yJyjTt3CDFt12RQ.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/amr2you/e-meter.jpg
When a scientology follower reaches the last Level, ...
they get into a flying saucer and they go off into space.
The Starmaker

Look at this one and judge for yourself...
Loading Image...



It's got ET written all over it!!!!

[David Dalton]

Post by David Dalton
How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy
affected your religious beliefs, if at all?

I was influenced some by Roger Zelazny's
Lord of Light and Creatures of Light and Darkness.

[Rod Speed]

Post by David Dalton
How has your reading of science fiction and
fantasy affected your religious beliefs, if at all?

I never did believe in any god or anything like it and still don’t.

It became clear to me that everyone who does
believe was just using it as a crutch for their 'minds'

Nothing to do with science fiction and fantasy.

Post by David Dalton
It is well known that Robert Heinlein's Stranger in
a Strange Land has influenced RDNA druids and
The Church of All Worlds, and that L. Ron Hubbard
influenced The Church of Scientology, for example.

Sure. And quite a few of the other sillier sects like
the Mormons etc have their own silly little fantasys.

Corse you can certainly make a case that all
of them do except arguably some that don’t
have any real story behind them.

Post by David Dalton
As I have mentioned in another thread on alt.atheism,
I consider myself to be a polytheistic pantheist.

Why do you need to believe in anything like that ?

Post by David Dalton
My eight main deities, which are defined on
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html ,
are ALL, Universe, LOVE2, Galaxy, Sun, Earth,
Moon, and Human.

None of those a deities. They are just something that exists.

Post by David Dalton
(Unlike some Wiccans, I do not consider all of my deities
other than ALL to be aspects of ALL, just subsets of ALL.)
Currently I believe that all eight have consciousness

Doesn’t make them deities even if they did.

Dogs have consciousness, and few are silly
enough go believe that they are deities.

Post by David Dalton
and I worship them

Why bother ?

Post by David Dalton
(consider them deities to me).

No they are not.

Post by David Dalton
If I didn't believe that they had consciousness
then I would be an atheist.

No, no more than if you believed that dogs don’t.

Post by David Dalton
In that case LOVE2 would be replaced by a message
of love and Human would be replaced by humanism,
and I would just revere and study the other six without
considering them as someones. This I consider strong
atheism.

It isnt anyway.

Post by David Dalton
But a few years ago I decided that they had
consciousness (existed as someones) but that
I would no longer worship them, that they
were no longer deities with respect to me.
This I consider weak atheism.

It isnt anyway.

Post by David Dalton
However these days I do worship them

What is the point ?

Post by David Dalton
and consider myself to be in a religion of one

You aren't the only one with that approach.

Post by David Dalton
and am not recruiting.

There are quite a few religions
that don’t bother with recruiting.

Post by David Dalton
I am pushing some non-religious messages
but I am not pushing my deities on anyone.
Also these days I am not far from returning
to weak or strong atheism. I have been
atheist for a good chunk of my life even
though I was raised Catholic.
My religious views have been influenced more
by science fiction and fantasy than by the bible.
Was Spinoza an atheist?

Who cares ?

[David Dalton]

Post by David Dalton
How has your reading of science fiction and
fantasy affected your religious beliefs, if at all?

I never did believe in any god or anything like it and still don¹t.

I was educated in Catholic schools but I too did not
believe in any god until my first waning crescent
mystic high of 1991 (and more so after my descent
into the low years in 1996).

It became clear to me that everyone who does
believe was just using it as a crutch for their 'minds'
Nothing to do with science fiction and fantasy.

Post by David Dalton
It is well known that Robert Heinlein's Stranger in
a Strange Land has influenced RDNA druids and
The Church of All Worlds, and that L. Ron Hubbard
influenced The Church of Scientology, for example.

Sure. And quite a few of the other sillier sects like
the Mormons etc have their own silly little fantasys.
Corse you can certainly make a case that all
of them do except arguably some that don¹t
have any real story behind them.

Post by David Dalton
As I have mentioned in another thread on alt.atheism,
I consider myself to be a polytheistic pantheist.

Why do you need to believe in anything like that ?

Because I have had some powerful mystic experiences
in and since 1991, including my sun stare and
blue rose vision. (The two deities I relate to
those two experiences are Sola the sun and Gaia
the earth.)

Post by David Dalton
My eight main deities, which are defined on
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html ,
are ALL, Universe, LOVE2, Galaxy, Sun, Earth,
Moon, and Human.

None of those a deities. They are just something that exists.

I define a deity as any someone that I worship.
They are not anthropomorphic or gendered, but
they are deities with respect to me. (But if
they do not have consciousness then they are
not someones.)

What are some SF books that discuss communication
with a conscious planet? I think some might be
Stanislav Lem's Solaris and Joan D. Vinge's
The Summer Queen and The Snow Queen. Perhaps
I should start a new thread about that? I
have a fleur de lys pendant made of horsehoe
nails and copper wire, that I got in 1978 in
Quebec City, that is similar to the fleur de
lys pendants of the sybils in the Joan D.
Vinge books I just mentioned.

[Rod Speed]

Post by David Dalton

Post by David Dalton
How has your reading of science fiction and
fantasy affected your religious beliefs, if at all?

I never did believe in any god or anything like it and still don¹t.

I was educated in Catholic schools

I was educated in state schools up till 3rd year
of high school, and then in an anglican school.

Post by David Dalton
but I too did not believe in any god until my first
waning crescent mystic high of 1991 (and more
so after my descent into the low years in 1996).

Never had anything like that myself.

I basically got into a very desirable situation where
someone was very happy to pay me very well for
doing what I would happily have done for free.

Post by David Dalton

It became clear to me that everyone who does
believe was just using it as a crutch for their 'minds'
Nothing to do with science fiction and fantasy.

Post by David Dalton
It is well known that Robert Heinlein's Stranger in
a Strange Land has influenced RDNA druids and
The Church of All Worlds, and that L. Ron Hubbard
influenced The Church of Scientology, for example.

Sure. And quite a few of the other sillier sects like
the Mormons etc have their own silly little fantasys.
Corse you can certainly make a case that all
of them do except arguably some that don¹t
have any real story behind them.

Post by David Dalton
As I have mentioned in another thread on alt.atheism,
I consider myself to be a polytheistic pantheist.

Why do you need to believe in anything like that ?

Because I have had some powerful mystic experiences
in and since 1991, including my sun stare and blue
rose vision. (The two deities I relate to those two
experiences are Sola the sun and Gaia the earth.)

Post by David Dalton
My eight main deities, which are defined on
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html ,
are ALL, Universe, LOVE2, Galaxy, Sun, Earth,
Moon, and Human.

None of those a deities. They are just something that exists.

I define a deity as any someone that I worship.

It isnt really possible to worship the last or the first two either.

Post by David Dalton
They are not anthropomorphic or gendered,

Sure. That’s not unusual with some religions.

Post by David Dalton
but they are deities with respect to me.
(But if they do not have consciousness
then they are not someones.)
What are some SF books that discuss
communication with a conscious planet?

Dunno, some others in here know a lot more
about that than I do.

Post by David Dalton
I think some might be Stanislav Lem's Solaris and
Joan D. Vinge's The Summer Queen and The Snow
Queen. Perhaps I should start a new thread about that?

Threads are quite capable of moving a long way here.

Post by David Dalton
I have a fleur de lys pendant made of horsehoe
nails and copper wire, that I got in 1978 in
Quebec City, that is similar to the fleur de
lys pendants of the sybils in the Joan D.
Vinge books I just mentioned.

I've never been into anything like that either.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by David Dalton
How has your reading of science fiction and fantasy
affected your religious beliefs, if at all? It is
well known that Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange
Land has influenced RDNA druids and The Church of
All Worlds, and that L. Ron Hubbard influenced
The Church of Scientology, for example.

Not any more than regular life. After all, the
Bible has many science fiction like tales in it.
Try reading Ezekiel and tell me that is not a
spaceship. Daniel has many prophecies in it that
have yet to be fulfilled. And if Revelation was
not fulfilled in the Judeo-Christian revolt of
AD 70 then we are in for a world of hurt someday.

Didn't C. S. Lewis say that interstellar
distances are God's quarantine system? I believe
that we are arrogant to think that Earth is the
only planet that God seeded.

And look at the autonomous, self healing, self
replicating body that God has created for us
human beings. There are several chemical
factories in the human body that we cannot
duplicate. I mean try to create a liver. Or a
kidney. Just impossible to match performance
and size constraints.

And I am getting tired of all the young earthers.
If God wanted to know how old the Earth was, he
would have explicitly told us.

Lynn

[Jacey Bedford]

Post by David Dalton
My religious views have been influenced more by
science fiction and fantasy than by the bible.

I decided I was an atheist at the age of 12, before I'd read much SF
(well, maybe Hugh Walters and John Wyndham) and nothing I've read since
has swayed me on that. So, no, SF has not influenced my views on religions.

Jacey

[The Starmaker]

Post by Jacey Bedford

Post by David Dalton
My religious views have been influenced more by
science fiction and fantasy than by the bible.

I decided I was an atheist at the age of 12, before I'd read much SF
(well, maybe Hugh Walters and John Wyndham) and nothing I've read since
has swayed me on that. So, no, SF has not influenced my views on religions.
Jacey

I can understand
you decided
you were an atheist
at the age of 12...

children suicide rate is very high at that age.



No God, wats the point in doin homework?


God lives in us all....even in atheist.



I'm pretty sure Jacey, you have never gotten rid of the notion of God
deep deep inside of you.



You're going to Heaven...dontchsworryabout it.


Even the Devil believes in God!



The Starmaker